ask a Pentecostal

**grannymh** · ay 22, '13, 6:28 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhead

Ever find yourself asking "where is the POWER of God in my life"?

Yup!
Then I look to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Some of those prayers the priest says (not the homily) are dang powerful!

ltwin · #**362** May 22, '13, 6:38 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by grannymh

Does the above only pertain to the Bible itself, i.e. the Bible as used by the Catholic Church and with some modifications used by other Christians.

It's sort of how all decisions should be made. The canon was gathered by consensus, and now we must interpret that canon by consensus, shaping our doctrine and life according to it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by grannymh

Or you referring th "Church" as encompasing all demoninations?

I'm referring to the universal church. When the canon was being formed, both West and East were involved, so the Catholic Church as we know it today would have been involved.

Quote:

Originally Posted by grannymh

The reason I ask is that it sounds similar to the Catholic protocol for determining doctrines with the exception that previous Church councils, Chruch Fathers and other writers, would also be consulted.

Interesting.

**guanophore** · #**363** May 22, '13, 11:42 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by benjohnson

We're almost cessationists - we're not fully closed as that would deny God's Grace.

This is be best quote I can find for our position: "The church, therefore, will not reject out of hand the possibility that God may in His grace and wisdom endow some in Christendom with the same abilities and powers He gave His church in past centuries. It will take care lest it quench the Spirit by failing to expect or pray for God’s presence and power in building His church. But it will also take seriously the admonition of the apostle to “test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world” (1 John 4:1; cf. also 1 Cor. 12:10). Above all, the church will not employ such gifts as though they were means of grace.3"

Thanks Ben! So when Lutheran's read scripture, do they do what most Catholics do, and read right over this verse

1 Cor 12:31
31 But strive for the greater gifts.

as though it was written only for ancient Christians?

benjohnson · #**364** Yesterday, 12:23 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by guanophore

Thanks Ben! So when Lutheran's read scripture, do they do what most Catholics do, and read right over this verse

1 Cor 12:31
31 But strive for the greater gifts.

as though it was written only for ancient Christians?

As we understand it, the greater gifts of the spirit are given and to be charished (per the LCMS): proclamation, teaching, exhortation, wisdom, knowledge, serving, helping, leadership, administration, giving, mercy, dicernment, extraordinary faith among others.

The best example I can give is the pastor of my son's school: he's alive in the spirit and has an almost supernatural work ethic, a love for god's children that astounds me, and a grace that I so dearly whish for my family.

Sadly, though our understanding is fine, I would say that as a chruch, we're not as delighted with the Holy Spirit as we should be.

ltwin · #**365** Yesterday, 3:31 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by benjohnson

As we understand it, the greater gifts of the spirit are given and to be charished (per the LCMS): proclamation, teaching, exhortation, wisdom, knowledge, serving, helping, leadership, administration, giving, mercy, dicernment, extraordinary faith among others.

The best example I can give is the pastor of my son's school: he's alive in the spirit and has an almost supernatural work ethic, a love for god's children that astounds me, and a grace that I so dearly whish for my family.

Sadly, though our understanding is fine, I would say that as a chruch, we're not as delighted with the Holy Spirit as we should be.

Do Lutherans practice/conduct exorcisms?

I ask because in undergrad I read somewhere (can't remember now) that Luther did exorcise demons from people on several occasions. I also remember watching a story on TV (it may have been a retelling of the "true story" the Exorcist movie was based on if I remember correctly) that talked about a Lutheran boy being possessed and the family being told by the Lutheran pastor to go to the Catholic Church because they know about those kind of things. Is exorcism still seen as something that is the responsibility of the church to perform?

I also wonder if perhaps there are spiritual gifts like prophecy or other forms of inspired speech that are at work among Lutherans but when they happen they aren't recognized as forms of inspired speech . . . I've heard cessationists try to explain away spiritual gifts by "redefining" them in (from their perspective) less theologically problematic terms.

jerry_joseph · #**366** Yesterday, 4:24 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ltwin

"Ask a [input your non-Catholic religion here]" threads seem popular. So, any questions that you want to ask about Pentecostalism?

1.Bible clearly tells that " So Jesus replied, "Truly, I say to you, if you do not eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. The one who eats my flesh and drinks my blood live with eternal life and I will raise him up on the last day.My flesh is really food and my blood is drink.Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood, live in me and I in them.Just as the Father, who is life, sent me and I have life from the Father, so whoever eats me will have life from me.This is the bread which came from heaven; unlike that of your ancestors, who ate and later died. Those who eat this bread will live forever." John 6: 53- 58

We catholics belive that Eucharist is body of Christ. As you pentecostals deny the presence of jesus in Eucharist and not accept that it is body of christ , then how will you explain this verse?. Is it against your faith?....

2. Pentecostals did not believe in Confession. Believes in praying to God directly for forgiveness of Sin..If God does not allow anybody to forgive sin then why bible tells like this "for those whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven; for those whose sins you retain, they are retained." John 20: 23.. Why Jesus give authority to his disciples to forgive sin?.

peace2u2 · #**367** Yesterday, 6:05 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by guanophore

I have found affordable copies of this in print if you prefer a paper copy.

probably cheaper than an ink cartridges.

yes. Thank you for the link.
God Bless you.

peace2u2 · #**368** Yesterday, 6:09 am

[quote=lance4648;10777646]Wow, I have just finished reading all 24 pages of posts and comments and I must say that I'm impressed with how cordial and knowledgeable the posts have been. I was born and raised in the Assemblies of God and I have recently started reading Catholic Answers to learn more about the Catholic church. The more I read the more I realize that we have so much in common and I'm glad to call all of you my Christian brothers and sisters.
I have to admit that before I got on this forum I had many misconceptions about Catholics and for that I'm truly sorry. I hope to have an opportunity to chat with many of you guys and learn much more about the faith from your own personal experiences.

All the best,

Lance[/QUOTE

Hi Lance, Welcome to CAF! Maybe you should start a thread, "Ask a Born Again Christian - AoG... to see how much we really do have in common?

peace2u2 · #**369** Yesterday, 6:35 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by benjohnson

Sadly, though our understanding is fine, I would say that as a chruch, we're not as delighted with the Holy Spirit as we should be.

I agree with you and find this in my parish church that most people are not as on fire as they should be because they really never learned about who the Holy Spirit is and about the charismatic gifts. Now when I go to a parish church about a 1/2 hour away from me that has a catholic charismatic flair to it, Holy Moly ---even daily Mass is on fire! The chapel is packed and the response of the people is loud and clear. I think our Pastors need to talk more about these charismatic gifts, their purpose and to offer more prayer services where people can be prayed over to have these gifts released or stirred up! God wants to give us the fullness of His love, His peace and His joy -

This link list 9 Charismatic gifts, but I thought there were 12? Or am I thinking of the "fruits of the Holy Spirit"?
http://sfspirit.com/charismatic-gifts.html

•The word of wisdom.

•The word of knowledge.

•The discernment of the spirits.

•The gifts of healing.

•The working of miracles.

•The gift of faith, that faith that moves mountains (Mt.21:21, Mk.11:22-23).

•Prophecy in tongues.

•Speaking in tongues.

•Interpretation of tongues.

**guanophore** · #**370** Yesterday, 7:07 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by benjohnson

As we understand it, the greater gifts of the spirit are given and to be charished (per the LCMS): proclamation, teaching, exhortation, wisdom, knowledge, serving, helping, leadership, administration, giving, mercy, dicernment, extraordinary faith among others.

The best example I can give is the pastor of my son's school: he's alive in the spirit and has an almost supernatural work ethic, a love for god's children that astounds me, and a grace that I so dearly whish for my family.

Sadly, though our understanding is fine, I would say that as a chruch, we're not as delighted with the Holy Spirit as we should be.

I think you really hit this nail on the head with the stance of the CC as well. These gifts have been valued over the charismatic gifts ever since the early centuries. I guess a better question would be on another verse:

1 Cor 14:1-5
Pursue love and strive for the spiritual gifts, and especially that you may prophesy. 2 For those who speak in a tongue do not speak to other people but to God; for nobody understands them, since they are speaking mysteries in the Spirit. 3 On the other hand, those who prophesy speak to other people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation. 4 Those who speak in a tongue build up themselves, but those who prophesy build up the church. 5 Now I would like all of you to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy.

1 Cor 14:39
39 So, my friends, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues

I think that our Liturgical tradition leaves very little room for the type of spontaneous expression described by Itwin.

lance4648 · #**371** Yesterday, 8:22 am

Thanks for the offer but I'm not qualified to start a thread or represent any group. All I know is that I'm a sinner saved by grace and I continually stumble and fall but God has always been there to pick me up. I really don't care if I'm known as a good Catholic, good Pentecostal or good Baptist because in the end I want to be like the prodigal son and have my father waiting with open arms saying welcome home.
I visited a Catholic church the other day and I hope I wasn't out of line. During prayer I raised my arms and a few minutes later I realized that people were staring. I didn't mean to cause a scene but I felt the move of the Holy Spirit and I raised my arms to "surrender" to his will.
Well that's pretty much me in a nutshell. I honestly don't like to argue and debate. I figure God will be the judge and jury but in the meantime I just want to be a servant and friend.

All the best,

Lance

benjohnson · #**372** Yesterday, 9:03 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ltwin

Do Lutherans practice/conduct exorcisms?

Yes... but it's rare. We tend to seek scientific or medial reasons first for abhorrent behavior.

From http://xrysostom.blogspot.com/2006/08/exorcism.html

"One thing anyone thinking of performing an exorcism must keep in mind is that it isn’t a personal battle between evil spirit and holy person. The conflict is between God and the demon and the exorcist is only Christ’s instrument of speaking His Word and offering prayers. To issue a personal challenge to a malignant demon could result in what happened to the sons of Sceva (Acts 19:11-20) or worse.

What I found interesting from a Lutheran standpoint is a realization that we don't perform many exorcisms is perhaps playing into Satan's seduction of modern man.

"The paucity of possessions in these days may be because Satan works better by keeping attention away from the supernatural and instead focusing people’s attention on the “ordinary” world and “scientific” explanations for everything. Perhaps he fears that if he draws attention to himself and the realm of the demonic, people will be more likely to seek help from God rather than from science and medicine. Since “Satan disguises himself as an angel of light, (2 Corinthians 11:14)” he appears to prefer seducing people to his side over terrifying them — especially if the terror shakes them out of a spiritual slumber."

benjohnson · #**373** Yesterday, 9:10 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by guanophore

Now I would like all of you to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy.

Speaking to prophesy would get you booted right out the door of our church.With any new prophesy we seem to lack the ability to discern good from bad, and hence are suspicious of it all. The traditional Lutheran answer is that we already have enough prophesy.

Quote:

I think that our Liturgical tradition leaves very little room for the type of spontaneous expression described by Itwin.

I agree! I'm torn - because I love good solid Liturgy, but I do see the holy spirit working in those that have those gifts. But I do also have a lot of reservations as well. Perhaps I need to learn to trust God more, but I also have to balance that with the risk of losing what little Grace I've been able to accept as it is.

**grannymh** · #**374** Yesterday, 10:06 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by benjohnson

Speaking to prophesy would get you booted right out the door of our church.With any new prophesy we seem to lack the ability to discern good from bad, and hence are suspicious of it all. The traditional Lutheran answer is that we already have enough prophesy.

Small clarification. In the Catholic Charismatic Renewal within the Catholic Church, speaking a prophesy is simply conveying God's message in the vernacular to the assembled community. Itwin has given some examples.

Normally, God's message, in prophesy, is the message which Jesus Christ gave us as recorded in the four Gospels. Teachings from the Sermon on the Mount and John, Chapter 6 are good examples. Personally, I am encouraged when hearing a prophesy about Jesus as the Good Shepherd. Still, these messages from God need to be discerned according to Catholic teaching.

My source for the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is very cautious when it comes to personal, directive prophesy. Because of the dangers associated with invalid prophesy, every safeguard has to be exercised. Prophesy in the vernacular also must be discerned and interpreted.

There is a saying from years ago -- if the prophesy is to have the congregation build an Olympic swimming pool in the back yard of the Preacher -- something is fishy.

Link to basic information.
http://brendancase.com/uploads/Key_t...ic_Renewal.pdf

I

ltwin · #**375** Yesterday, 10:13 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jerry_joseph

John 6: 53- 58

We catholics belive that Eucharist is body of Christ. As you pentecostals deny the presence of jesus in Eucharist and not accept that it is body of christ , then how will you explain this verse?. Is it against your faith?....

No, it is not against my faith. Pentecostals do not deny the spiritual presence of Christ in Holy Communion. I refer you to post 50 page 4 and post 281 page 19 of this thread, which touch on this topic. I also cite a rather old article from the Pentecostal Evangel of July 12, 1919, "The Lord's Supper," p. 12:

Partakers of His Nature. Jesus took the unleavend bread----for they never used leavened bread at the Passover----and blessed and break it and said, "Take, eat, this is My body." As we come to the communion table, behind the symbol and the sign, we are to see our precious Savior and to appropriate and partake of Him. It is His desire to communicate Himself to us, and as we partake in faith, discerning Him whilst we feed, we receive life for our spirits, souls, and bodies.

God's Medicine. We were at a meeting at one time when a sister arose and told of a vision she had had three times repeated to her. She saw a communion table with the bread and the wine laid upon it, and the Lord appeared to her and said, "This is My medicine for My children." He told her that the reason that so many were weak and sickly was because they did not apprehend this provision for their bodies. Yes, at this feast we can partake of Christ, and He is alI we need for our bodies as well as for our spirits and our souls. Andrew Murray once wrote, "He gives Himself to me to be the food, the joy, the living power in my soul. O blessed heavenly giving of eternal love! Jesus gives me His own body: Jesus gives me Himself." . . . .

. . . . Jesus took the cup and gave thanks----a second giving of thanks----and gave to the disciples, saying, "This is My blood of the new testament which is shed for many for the remission of sins." The first testament or covenant was ratified by blood, and Moses not only sprinkled the book but all the people, Jer. 31: 31-34 gives us this new and better testament or covenant of which Jesus is the mediator, a covenant that promises us that the Lord will write Hiis law in our minds and hearts, that He will be our God and we shall be His people, that He will forgive our iniquities and remember our sins no more. Jesus' blood was the "better sacrifice" that ratifies the new covenant, and it is blessed to be sprinkled with this precious flow and to know that all our sins are remitted, never to be remembered against us again.

The Blood of the Grapes. The blood of beasts before Jesus came prefigured the atonement, the blood of grapes now shows it forth. Jesus is the true Vine, and just as the blood of the grapes represents the very life of the vine, so Jesus at Calvary gave His very life blood for us. Because of the shedding of His blood we can now partake of His life. The blood was shed for the many for the remission of sins. Praise God for the limitlessness of the atonement of Christ. It Is for "whosoever will." There is no limit to the preciousness and power of the blood of Christ.

Continued in next post

ask a Pentecostal

Friday, May 24, 2013

26 Re: Ask a Pentecostal

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