ask a Pentecostal

**grannymh**

Quote:

Originally Posted by peace2u2

Thank you for these links. I will have to print the publication titled, A Key To Charismatic Renewal in the Catholic Church as I read and absorb material better in the form of a book than reading from the comptuer. It is 181 pages but if I print on both sides of the paper, it is only 90 pages. Time to buy some ink.

I often do the same thing, even with posts. It is difficult for me to read from the screen.

As I recall, the paperback version of A Key to Charismatic Renewal in the Catholic Church by Msgr. Vincent M. Walsh is relatively inexpensive. It is published by Key of David Publications, ISBN: 0-87029-033-9

**grannymh** · #**332** May 18, '13, 8:15 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by peace2u2

The gift of tongues is NOT “playing God” - its communication with God thru a special prayer language. It’s a free flowing of the Spirit thru our voice.

Romans 8:26
“In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans.”

I think our difficulties with tongues lies in our own fears and doubts probably because we are not taught in our religious education formation not only what these gifts are but we are not taught how to earnestly seek these charismatic gifts. Our religious formation tends to focus just on the 7 Gifts of the Holy Spirit that we receive in Confirmation. The Holy Spirit is not going to give us these charismatic gifts if we do not want them. We have to ask for them and then we have to humble ourselves and be willing to open our mouths and let the Spirit flow thru our voice - We have to participate and allow the Holy Spirit to use our tongue and voice.

We each have our own prayer voice or language, each as unique as each one of us is unique.

Interesting quote from Cardinal Suenes book, A New Pentecost?, “Let us admit it: we are terribly complicated when it comes to giving outward expression to our deep religious feelings before God or in front of others. … . We have been ossified by formalism and ritualism. Our liturgical gatherings have only begun to awaken to the meaning of communal liturgy after centuries of passivity. But though a thaw has set in, we have yet to experience the warmth and enthusiasm that should characterize our liturgical celebrations in community.”

Grannymh, I believe you had mentioned in an earlier post or maybe it was in another thread on the gift of tongues about “yielding to the Holy Spirit”. I have come to realize that this is easier than we think - and probably because when, at least for me this happened, we try to pray in tongues we try and pray with our minds when the purpose of praying in tongues is not to use our minds but to pray with our hearts - allowing our faith and our trust in the Holy Spirit to allow this gift to formulate thru our voice - We need to let go no matter how silly we might think we might sound - Quite honestly, of all the times I have been prayed over by someone using this gift, it never sounds silly - but is really beautiful and the experience has always been positive, its like being wrapped in God’s warmth and love - His protection.

Also, since only God knows our hearts and this is a prayer of the heart, Satan cannot understand this direct communication with God which can be very powerful when we use this gift with intercessory prayer 1 Cor. 14:2 For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to human beings but to God, for no one listens; he utters mysteries in spirit.” The gift of tongues frustrates Satan’s plan. We must understand also that this gift is not superior to the most important gift which is the gift of love, but when we use this gift of tongues with love and in love, it is special indeed as St. Paul does say that he would like every one to speak in tongues but combined with the other gifts not in superiority of the other gifts.

Prayer is direct communication with God which deepens our relationship with God and tongues is just one aspect of prayer which can deepen our communication with God and therefore strengthen our relationship with Him.

Of the Jubilus of the Heart by Jacopone da Todi

The Jubilus in fire awakes
And straight the man must sing and pray,
His tongue in childish stammering shakes,
Nor knows he what his lips may say;
He can not hide or quench away
That Sweet pure and infinite…
…And see? His neighbor stand apart,
And mock the senseless chatter;
They deem his speech a foolish blur,
A shadow of his spirit’s light.

Thank you.

**guanophore** · #**333** May 18, '13, 8:45 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by armyross

WOW you look into things way to much.

Yeah, I get that a lot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by armyross

All I said is I don't think everyone can just jump up ans start talking in tounges like I have seen at places

Then your belief is Catholic, and I think that Itwin will also agree on this point. Even those who can just jump out and start talking in tongues would only do so during service in an orderlyl manner.

Quote:

Originally Posted by armyross

chill out no need to question what I belive. Chill

I was questioning what you meant by what you said, because your statement did not sound consistent with Catholic faith. One of the goals of this forum is to question faith - people are free to believe whatever they choose, we just all need to respect one another. If anyone here advertises themselves as Catholic, yet espouses non-Catholic or anti-Catholic beliefs, you can be sure I will says something about it. I am not directing at to you as a person. I can't know you, or anything about you on these threads, so I can only go by what you write in the post.

**guanophore** · #**334** May 18, '13, 8:52 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by benjohnson

You got my honest reaction.... I din't say I was correct

For Lutherans, revelation is closed - and for us, speaking and interpreting tongues seems a bit to close to that.

What do you mean, "revelation is closed"? God has said everything He has to say to mankind, and now we are just supposed to figure everything out by ourselves?

Quote:

Originally Posted by benjohnson

Given what I've seen here in CAF from those that in the charismatic movement (catholic and non-catholic) - it is *our* loss. There's a particular strong but gentle grace that seems to come with these gifts.

Yes, I can affirm this, but there has also been a great deal of abuse of the gifts, they have been misused and it is easy to see why the Church would minimalize them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by benjohnson

Honestly, when you said that the charismatic movement was dwindling in the Catholic church it made be a bit sad - even though it would probably drive me bonkers if I saw it in our sanctuary. But you never know!

It has made me sad too, but the gifts are there to serve the Church, not themselves. Most of those I have known in the movement over the years are now serving in parish ministries.

**guanophore** · #**335** May 18, '13, 8:57 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by peace2u2

Thank you for these links. I will have to print the publication titled, A Key To Charismatic Renewal in the Catholic Church as I read and absorb material better in the form of a book than reading from the comptuer. It is 181 pages but if I print on both sides of the paper, it is only 90 pages. Time to buy some ink.

I have found affordable copies of this in print if you prefer a paper copy.

probably cheaper than an ink cartridges.

**grannymh** · #**336** May 18, '13, 2:12 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by guanophore

What do you mean, "revelation is closed"? God has said everything He has to say to mankind, and now we are just supposed to figure everything out by ourselves?

In Catholic terminology, Public Revelation is closed.

Source: Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraphs 65-67.

FYI --This book was printed so that we do not have to figure everything out by ourselves.

**guanophore** · #**337** May 18, '13, 2:31 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by grannymh

In Catholic terminology, Public Revelation is closed.

Source: Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraphs 65-67.

FYI --This book was printed so that we do not have to figure everything out by ourselves.

But do Lutherans share this view?

And even if so, does the completion of public revelation mean that there is no PRIVATE revelation? Such as in the exercise of the charismatic gifts of prophesy, for instance, or the appearances of the Saints?

**grannymh** · #**338** May 18, '13, 3:16 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by guanophore

But do Lutherans share this view?

I cannot speak for Lutherans.

Quote:

And even if so, does the completion of public revelation mean that there is no PRIVATE revelation? Such as in the exercise of the charismatic gifts of prophesy, for instance, or the appearances of the Saints?

Private revelation is totally separate from public revelation. This is public revelation. “In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by a Son.” Christ, the Son of God made man.
(Source: Hebrews 1: 1-4; CCC 65)

Private revelation exists in the writings of some of the Saints and in some of the Holy Spirit's many, many gifts. The purpose of private revelation is to help us live better lives according to the teachings of the Catholic Church. As individual events, private revelation could include a reference to an existing doctrine. For example, many saints urge us to participate at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass as often as possible. This is a reference to the doctrine of the Real Presence of Jesus in the Holy Eucharist.

ltwin · #**339** May 18, '13, 5:39 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by grannymh

In the Catholic Church, the best part of the service is the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist.

There are some Pentecostals who believe in Real Presence. Daniel Tomberlin, an ordained bishop in the Church of God (Cleveland, TN), wrote a book 3 years ago called Pentecostal Sacraments: Encountering God at the Altar where he draws on the thought of Gregory Palamas and Pentecostal spirituality to inform his own thoughts on Real Presence. This review of the book from Regent University gives some idea as to what Tomberlin is talking about.

Daniel Albrecht wrote about Pentecostal worship and liturgy in The Spirit and Spirituality:Volume 4, saying that the dimensions of Pentecostal worship included worship as: encounter with God, as attentiveness to God, and as yielding a sensitivity to human need. Pentecostals believe strongly in the manifest presence of God, and this belief endows them with expectancy to encounter him in worship.

Believers expect God to come and meet with them. Pentecostals believe that God alone inaugurates such a meeting by God's gracious acts and presence. Believers can only prepare themselves. The worshippers cannot force God's presence and movings. They can, however, prepare and wait for God's actions in and among them, and then respond to the "flow of the Spirit" when God's "promptings" or "stirrings" occur. Although pastoral or liturgical leadership is exerted, Pentecostals look to the Spirit who ultimately initiates, guides, facilitates, and leads the worship. (p. 72).

In attending to God, Albrecht writes, "Pentecostals see themselves engaged in serving or performing for the Divine. God is the audience and the congregation performs the drama of praise. . . . It is a way of 'ministering to God.'" This attentive adoration "sensitizes them to the needs of humanity." Albrecht illustrates,

The pattern is understood as follows: in worship, the believers minister to God and then God in turn ministers in and through the believers to others. For example, in many Pentecostal church services it is customary to engage in some form of healing rite during the worship service. Congregants may form circles of prayer, praying for one another's needs. Or, the pastor may call those who desire prayer for a need to come to the altar to be prayed for by the elders. At other times, worshippers may simply be asked to stand to signify a prayer request. Other worshipers will then come to pray with them. In each case, congregants reflect a sensitivity to human needs, a sensitivity founded on the belief that God is concerned with the human condition in all of its manifestations and that God calls and gifts believers to minister to human needs. (pp. 72-73)

The word of God/biblical authority, spiritual gifts, an oral liturgy, and spontaneity (which allows improvisation in the oral liturgy) facilitate these dimensions of worship. On spontaneity, Albrecht compares the interplay between the oral liturgy and "liturgical improvisation" with jazz, where a scored or scripted melody is well known or memorized but the musicians are free to spontaneously adapt, invent, expand, and embellish on the original. The Pentecostal script is well known (even if it isn't written down), but it expects improvisation. It is through spontaneity and improvisation that Pentecostals attempt to interact with and follow the Spirit with authentic and heartfelt expressions (p. 76).

**guanophore** · #**340** May 18, '13, 8:12 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by grannymh

I cannot speak for Lutherans.

You answered the question I asked of him....

Quote:

Originally Posted by grannymh

Private revelation is totally separate from public revelation.

Exactly! That is why I asked him what revelation he was talking about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by grannymh

This is public revelation. “In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by a Son.” Christ, the Son of God made man.
[color=black][font=Arial](Source: Hebrews 1: 1-4; CCC 65)

granny, we are talking about whether or not God reveals anything to His faithful through charismatic gifts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by grannymh

Private revelation exists in the writings of some of the Saints and in some of the Holy Spirit's many, many gifts. The purpose of private revelation is to help us live better lives according to the teachings of the Catholic Church. As individual events, private revelation could include a reference to an existing doctrine. For example, many saints urge us to participate at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass as often as possible. This is a reference to the doctrine of the Real Presence of Jesus in the Holy Eucharist.

I don't think Lutherans share this view...and hence, my question to benjohnson.

armyross · #**341** May 18, '13, 9:29 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by guanophore

Yeah, I get that a lot.

Then your belief is Catholic, and I think that Itwin will also agree on this point. Even those who can just jump out and start talking in tongues would only do so during service in an orderlyl manner.

I was questioning what you meant by what you said, because your statement did not sound consistent with Catholic faith. One of the goals of this forum is to question faith - people are free to believe whatever they choose, we just all need to respect one another. If anyone here advertises themselves as Catholic, yet espouses non-Catholic or anti-Catholic beliefs, you can be sure I will says something about it. I am not directing at to you as a person. I can't know you, or anything about you on these threads, so I can only go by what you write in the post.

No worries. I am still a faily new Catholis. I was raised LDS and then went through RCIA. I may sound a little short at times on here but thats just because I am deployed and the Army brings out the best of us somtimes.

ltwin · #**342** May 19, '13, 9:26 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by grannymh

Private revelation is totally separate from public revelation. This is public revelation. “In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by a Son.” Christ, the Son of God made man.
(Source: Hebrews 1: 1-4; CCC 65)

Private revelation exists in the writings of some of the Saints and in some of the Holy Spirit's many, many gifts. The purpose of private revelation is to help us live better lives according to the teachings of the Catholic Church. As individual events, private revelation could include a reference to an existing doctrine. For example, many saints urge us to participate at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass as often as possible. This is a reference to the doctrine of the Real Presence of Jesus in the Holy Eucharist.

This is sort of how Pentecostals distinguish it. We believe in continuing private revelation that must be tested by public revelation.

**guanophore** · #**343** May 19, '13, 9:31 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ltwin

This is sort of how Pentecostals distinguish it. We believe in continuing private revelation that must be tested by public revelation.

Itwin...sometimes you Pentecostals sound so Catholic!

benjohnson · #**344** May 19, '13, 10:16 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by guanophore

But do Lutherans share this view?

Yes! Confessional Lutherans certainly do - the word 'fatima' is enough to get us foaming at the mouth.

MartinJordan · #**345** May 19, '13, 10:16 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by guanophore

Itwin...sometimes you Pentecostals sound so Catholic!

MJ

ask a Pentecostal

Friday, May 24, 2013

pg 23 ask a pentecostal

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